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If Guy Carbonneau is serious about using the players that will help him win, he needs to realize which combinations work and which don’t. After playing 17 games, we can come to some conclusions. Some players work well with others. Some players are used to other players and Guy is falling into the same trap he accused his players of not seeing. Let me quote him
“Guys need to realize that what happened last year is last year. You don’t start the season with 12 or 40 assists, you start from scratch.”
Well coach, you are doing the exact same thing. You think some combinations are working. You think some players are adding to a line and some don’t. But you mainly looked at how Higgins and Koivu used to work well together and how Koivu and Tanguay are getting points together.
The truth is: Guillaume Latendresse makes the world go round.
Here are the Habs results with various players on what has been the best line this year.
Latendresse on Koivu’s line: 7-1-1
Higgins on Koivu’s line: 2-3-1*
Kovalev on Koivu’s line: 1-1-0
* I counted the NY Islanders game as a Higgins victory since he played the third period with Koivu. It was Plekanec’s line scoring 3 times in 3rd period who stole the game but let’s be generous here.
Do I need to explain more? I will. Here are Tanguay and Koivu numbers with and without Gui.
(using the “goal-assists-points +/-” format)
With: Tanguay 6-5-11 +7 and Koivu 4-6-10 +9 in 9 games.
Without: Tanguay 2-4-6 -1 and Koivu 2-4-6 +0 in 8 games.
It’s more than time we admit a couple of things about Guillaume. He’s a hard working, honest power forward who will apply good forecheck, be physical and has good enough hands to score every once in a while. I think many people expect so much of him that they see how he fails to achieve standards that don’t fit the player. He’ll create space for Koivu and Tanguay. He’ll get secondary passes most of the time, score about 20 times and end up with around 50 points but so often he’ll be the guy who skates hard towards a defencemen, forcing him to cough up the puck to Saku or that body in front of the net to screen the goalie.
The Montreal Canadiens are a better team when Latendresse is playing on the first line.
He makes the Habs a better team than Higgins does.
There.
I said it.
Let the hate mail flow.
is this a joke?
BB,
I’m not sure if I totally agree with you concerning Guillaume being a better option than Higgins, but I give you credit for putting it out there to debate (especially saying: “Guillaume Latendresse makes the world go round”).
Carbonneau needs to settle things down and stick to a set lineup. His chemistry experiments aren’t working.
He also needs to stop the 4th line revolving door to the press box. Tell the 4th liners that if they play well, they stay in the lineup!!
My lineup would be:
Kovalev/Plekanec/A. Kostitsyn
Last year wasn’t a fuke!!
Tanguay/Koivu/Higgins
Speed to burn and creativity…let them gel more!!
Latendresse/Lang/S. Kostitsyn
They displayed some chemistry in the two games they played together….give them more time together
Kostopoulos/Lapierre/Begin or Laraque
I think putting Kost, Lappy and Begin together give you a solid 4th line with energy and a defensive conscience
Press box: Dandenault
Just my opinion for what it’s worth!!
Wow! I think someone’s overdosing on the RDS koolaid.
I could write a few pages on this but suffice to say that if Guillaume Latendresse is one of the Canadiens’ top three forwards, as you say, then this team will struggle to make the playoffs.
Your creative use of ‘stats’ is, let’s say, ‘interesting’. Looking at the team’s won/loss record through the scope of one player assumes that he is the only variable. And we can all agree that he’s not. This team has not been the same for the past five games and it has nothing to do with where Latendresse is playing.
Similarly the Anaheim Ducks have a much higher winning precentage when Jonas Hillier is in goal. So I suppose you would tell me that if the playoffs started tomorrow, JS Giguere should be on the bench?
The only meaningful set of stats to compare players is one that you left out. Latendresse has 2 goals and 6 assists in 17 games. Higgins has 4 goals, 3 assists in 6 FEWER games. In fewer games, Higgins has taken 60% more shots, and has a short-handed goal and a game-winning goal.
Stats aside, Higgins is a MUCH better hockey player than Latendresse…and it’s not even close!
Habster,
I think your line combinations make the most sense from players who compliment each other and who have developed chemistry. I’m surprised that these line combos arent obvious to the coaching staff.
I might lean towards Dandenault over Begin, who is a higher risk option. But Im ok with your suggestion for now as long as Begin doesnt get any PK time when he’s in the lineup. He’s brutal!
I still would like to see D’Agostino, Pacioretty and Chipchura have a 5 game shot to see what they can bring to the lineup.
Anonymous: Nope. Not at all.
Habster: Your lines make a lot of sense, but I’m not sure Higgins gel as well with a playmaker like Tanguay. Micheal Ryder was a totally different player and it worked. But with Tanguay, I loved Guillaume’s work and wasn’t impressed with Higgins. However, Guillaume worked well with Lang and Sergei so that could work as well. The fourth line is an obvious “whoever works harder” situation.
Rocket… oh boy. Where do I start? Hillier won his games agaisnt Ottawa, St-Louis and Los Angeles. 3 teams in the league bottom five. Not exactly a statement.
And since when is the most important stat is the scoring sheet? It’s not. It’s the W column. Higgins 4 goals came from the Ottawa hat trick and a goal against the Islanders, his hometown. He always score in Long Island. And Higgins never had to play on the fourth line.
I don’t watch too much RDS. And I hate kool-aid. Oh yeah? Otherwise I’d be screaming that ANdrei K “is not the same player since his injury” which is stupid. I’ve seen him do the same type of plays as last year but this time, the defense is ready for it. They know he’s good.
Higgins is a better player, but not by as much as you’d love to think. And that was never part of my argument in the first place. The question is: Who help you win?
In Canadiens best years, the top line was Lemaire-Shutt-Lafleur. If you ask me, Bob Gainey was a better player than Jacques Lemaire but does it mean I would have him center Lafleur and Shutt? Hell no. Lemaire fit a lot better on that line than Gainey, due to style of play.
I still believe Higgins is a lot more creative than grit and I think Tanguay and Koivu need grit on their line. And seriously, how much can you expect from Latendresse, barely 21? Do you know how many games Higgins played with the Canadiens when he was 21? 2. That’s it. He didn’t even record a single shot on net in the NHL before being 23. (it would have been 22 if it wasn’t for the lockout).
Better player? No. Not at all. Better fit? I believe so.
Now I’ll leave you with a side question: Latendresse played as hard on every line he was thrown. How many Habs do you think would play as hard if asked to play with Begin and Dandenault? (Not talking about a Kovalev-play-on-two-lines situation).
Latendresse is a natural right winger, even though he shoots left. I don’t see a conflict between he and Higgins. He can play on the left, obviously, if it’s the only way to get into the game. But the natural left wingers on the team are Tanguay, Higgins, Begin, only I think. The rest of the wingers played most of their careers on the right side.
Trevor Timmins has a right side fetish when he drafts. Most of the forwards and defensemen taken in the time he has been here are most comfortable on the right side. It leads to a logjam on one side of the ice as far as prospects are concerned, and a hole on the other side.
I think you forgot Andrei Kostitsyn.
Andrei Kostitsyn is a natural right winger.
Andrei Kostitsyn played RW right up until last season. Maybe that is where he should be, he hasn’t been all that effective on the left side so far this year. Or maybe they should trade one of the right wingers in a package. The top prospect in Hamilton looks to be Matt D’Agostini who is a right winger and very similar in style to some of the players on the Montreal roster.
Anyway, I think they should trade one of the Kostitsyn brothers. I don’t think it will be a good thing in the long run to have them together on the team. Their moods seem to affect each other, and if one of them gets benched I think the other would be pouting.
BB, you seemed to miss my point, and ended up making my argument for me.I wasnt suggesting Hillier is a better goalie..quite the opposite actually. My example was a clear illustration that linking a specific player (like Hillier or Latendresse )to a team's winning percentage is completely meaningless.
A 'W' is the most important stat for an individual player??? How exactly do you measure that while isolating all the other variables for comparison? Answer is, you can't. So for forwards, scoring stats have always been a standard measure of their contribution.
I dont know what Lafleur et al have to do with this but you are talking about a line built for offense…and we established in a previous discussion that Gainey's strength was not offensive but to be a defensive shut down forward.
You can certainly disect Higgins scoring stats but to be fair I'm sure you will do that with Gui's as well. When doing so, you will find that most of Latendresse's points are 2nd assists on a line that needs a scorer.
As far as fit, Tanguay & Koivu are terrific set-up guys and passers. The best fit is Higgins who has a great shot, will go to the front of the net, is a good two way player and has chemistry with Koivu…all things absent in Lats game.
I find it odd that in your article you say that Latendresse is the center of the universe but then say we can't expect too much of him because he's only 21.
Frankly I think that we should lower our expectations substantially from center of the universe to a player who can develop his game on the 3rd or 4th line without all the pressure.
To answer your question, I think that I finally saw real somewhat consistent effort from Latendresse when he was on the 4th line. I'm sure that anyone who wanted to stay in the lineup would work hard..Kostopoulos and Chipchura come to mind.
Rob: You’re actually right. He was drafted as a right winger. The only player we drafted as a left winger and you didn’t mention is: Thomas Plekanec and I’d rather keep him as a center. I’m not sold on trading any of the brothers. Sergei gives a lot more than his cap hit (and you need players like that) and Andrei is more talented than you give him credit for.
Rocket, you seem pissed. Good. Good. Let the hate flow through you.
Any 4th line player is a no brainer. They work to be in the lineup. Do you think the Kostitsyn would do the same? Plek? Tanguay? And so on.
As for the Gainey example, you can’t simply state that “the best players play on the first line” and honestly, I think Higgins look a lot more like Carbo than Shutt. He doesn’t go to the net, he doesn’t battle in the corner. I honestly think we need a power forward on that line and Higgins isn’t one. Very talented two way players and probably the next captain.
But Gui, despite not getting points on the stat sheet, helped on some goals by hitting a player, forcing him to force his play. Who cares if he doesn’t get an assist on a goal like that? If he force a defencemen to give the puck to Tanguay, Koivu or Markov, it’s effective. Same if he screens the goalie. Remeber your curling joke? Was Brisebois really the only reason this shot went in?
And I never said he was the center of the universe. I said he makes the world go round. And I’ll admit it was a strech. But he does help more than his stat sheet indicate.
Got to go to work. I’ll talk to you after CH Express…
Angry? no. Exasperated? maybe? I was so hoping that we could have a hockey debate.
The rule is that if you put something in quotes, I said it or wrote it. Neither is true.
A power forward on the Koivu line? Fantastic!! Where do you plan to get one? Higgins isn’t a power forward and Latendresse is only a power forward wannabe.
Making a hit to turn the puck over to your teammates is an effective way of contributing…but it has to be done with consistency…every game…every shift.. to deserve a place on the 2nd line. Not once in 17 games!
Screening the goalie? Terrific!! Higgins is one of the few that goes to the front of the net on a regular basis. For whatever reason, Gui doesn’t like to do that. He parks himself at the side of the crease. So instead of consistently getting chances to deflect the puck or screen the goalie, he waits for the 1 in 10 times that the puck deflects his way. And for all the promise of a player with soft hands, Lats hasn’t displayed it.
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